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Info-ParaNet Newsletters Volume I Number 381 Sunday, March 24th 1991 Today's Topics: Goof Hatonn And The Pleiades New Echo CONTINUUM Continues Call for Submissions Linguist Appointed New ParaNet Affiliate Gravitational magnetism Gravitational Magnetism Hatonn And The Pleiades Re: Statements of accepta File Disclaimers Re: File disclaimers ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moderator's Note: Our Domain address is broken so until it is fixed use these internet type addresses (Of course UUCP site don't have to do this): infopara%scicom@boulder.colorado.edu or infopara%scicom@ncar.ucar.edu We hope to have the domain mx record corrected this week. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Jim Speiser) Subject: Goof Date: 19 Mar 91 14:42:00 GMT > "The Missing Link" is a magazine edited by Aileen Bringleand is > published by UFO Contact Center International. The subscription is > $19.00 a year. The address is 3001 South 288th St. #304, Federal Way, > Washington 98003. I met Aileen over the xmas holidays when she visited > Orlando. She is also Co-Host for the First UFO Congress that will be > held in Tucson, Arizona 3 May through 7 May 1991. I hope that will help. > 73's ---Jim--- Is she the former Aileen Edwards of Seattle? Jim -- Jim Speiser - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Jim.Speiser@f37.n114.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael.Corbin@f4.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Subject: Hatonn And The Pleiades Date: 18 Mar 91 21:43:00 GMT > Yeah, I have been an attendee at a few 'Full-Trance' and 'Semi-Trance' > sittings in years gone by. Just surface observations though. The > 'medium' and helpers generally frown at any official examinations. Such > measurement type apparatus seems to scare them easily. As the old > saying goes: > "Mediums do their best work in the dark!" :-) What were your observations? > Most probably. But I bet if ParaNet members were to form a 'seek out > and observe' travel group for various claimants of this phenomenon, as I > assume they have done for UFO sightings...I believe there would be a lot > less Phoenix Journal 'Hatonn' facade types floating about. More input. Suggestions? Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@f4.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael.Corbin@f4.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Subject: New Echo Date: 18 Mar 91 21:45:00 GMT > Sigh...I knew this day would come. I know the traffic on that echo will > no doubt be quite 'noisy' when the word gets out over Fight-O-Net. I > hope the moderator of that conference is up tp the task required of > him/her. :-) It won't be that bad. Just think of all those people out there reading those other echoes getting seriously deluded over biased information. Now, they have a friend in the UFO business <grin>. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@f4.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clark.Matthews@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews) Subject: CONTINUUM Continues Date: 19 Mar 91 13:47:00 GMT *** P a r a N e t C O N T I N U U M *** Continues ... CONTINUUM is back! ParaNet's newsletter of UFOlogy, online communications, paranormal studies and research is resuming publication. CONTINUUM will appear quarterly, with the first issue scheduled for July of this year. Planned articles in the coming issue include: The Fatima Enigma Online listening post -- best of the ParaNet echoes The Philadelphia Experiment: Build It in Your Basement?! ParaNet -- 5 years and counting... UFO History UFO current events Handy UFO classifieds And more ... An exciting forum for an array of interests -- and a handy resource for finding: Current UFO events and symposia Computer bulletin boards Study groups Contact groups Researchers and research organizations Authors and publishers A limited number of complimentary copies of CONTINUUM's premiere issue will be made available to ParaNet participants and other interested parties. Thereafter, CONTINUUM will be available by subscription only. For further information, or to request a complimentary copy, send electronic mail to: * Clark Matthews, Editorial Director ParaNet Pi 1-201-451-3063 (BBS) 9:1012/4 (ParaNet) 1:107/816 (FidoNet) P.O. Box 3934, Jersey City, NJ 07303-3934 (U.S. Mail) * Michael Corbin, ParaNet Administrator ParaNet Alpha 1-303-431-8797 (BBS) 9:9/0 (ParaNet) 1:104/422 (FidoNet) mcorbin@scicom.alphacdc.com (Internet) * James Roger Black, Contributing Editor jrblack@shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu (Internet) (CONTINUUM is a production of the ParaNet Information Service, which is solely responsible for its content. No endorsement by any other organization or communication service is intended or should be implied.) -- Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Clark.Matthews@paranet.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clark.Matthews@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (Clark Matthews) Subject: Call for Submissions Date: 19 Mar 91 13:48:00 GMT *** P a r a N e t C O N T I N U U M *** C A L L F O R S U B M I S S I O N S CONTINUUM is back! ParaNet's newsletter of UFOlogy, research, online communications, and paranormal studies is resuming publication -- and calling for submissions. We are seeking articles of 500 to 3000 words for the premiere issue, which is scheduled for publication in July 1991. Publication will be quarterly. Payment will be in copies. *** S U B M I S S I O N D E A D L I N E *** May 15, 1991 Send submissions to: Clark Matthews The Wrong Number BBS P.O. Box 3934 Jersey City, NJ 07303-3934 *** E D I T O R I A L S U B M I S S I O N S *** SUBMIT ANYTHING! We don't PROMISE to publish it, but if your topic interests you as a UFO buff, we think it's a safe bet that others in our "circle" will share your interest. Science fiction. Science fact. UFO/paranormal history. Scaly-eyed skepticism. A book review. A television critique. An interview. The results of your last physics experiment. You name it: If it interests you, it will probably interest us and your compeers here. And it's welcome in CONTINUUM. Registered copyrighted material will be protected but we do assume a grant of non-exclusive serial rights from you, the author, upon submission and before delivery of complimentary copies. You must inform us of other, pending rights sales upon submission. Likewise, if you submit work-in-progress, your unpublished copyright will be respected but a grant of non-exclusive serial rights is expected in exchange for editorial and development work and before the delivery of complimentary copies. (Heck, we might even improve it!) *** P L A N N E D T O P I C S *** Planned articles in the coming issue include: The Fatima Enigma Online listening post -- best of the ParaNet echoes The Philadelphia Experiment: Build It in Your Basement?! ParaNet -- 5 years and counting... UFO History UFO current events Handy UFO classifieds And more ... *** M A G A Z I N E H I G H L I G H T S *** Free classified public notices of: UFO events and symposia Computer bulletin boards Study groups Contact groups Researchers and research organizations Authors and publishers Maximum ad length is 40 words, including address and zip code. Dues- based membership organizations and sponsors of symposia may advertise, but free classified ads cannot offer anything for sale. Space for free classifieds is limited, and the offer does not apply to display advertising. The management reserves the right to refuse ads. It's definitely "un-commercial", but we're committed to keeping the "bulletin board" concept alive in the UFOlogical community. So we want CONTINUUM to be a helpful resource for its readers -- just like ParaNet is for its users. What goes around, comes around, in other words. For further information, send electronic mail to: * Clark Matthews, Editorial Director ParaNet Pi 1-201-451-3063 (BBS) 9:1012/4 (ParaNet) 1:107/816 (FidoNet) P.O. Box 3934, Jersey City, NJ 07303-3934 (U.S. Mail) * Michael Corbin, ParaNet Administrator ParaNet Alpha 1-303-431-8797 (BBS) 9:9/0 (ParaNet) 1:104/422 (FidoNet) mcorbin@scicom.alphacdc.com (Internet) * James Roger Black, Contributing Editor jrblack@shemtaia.weeg.uiowa.edu (Internet) (CONTINUUM is a production of the ParaNet Information Service, which is solely responsible for its content. No endorsement by any other organization or communication service is intended or should be implied.) -- Clark Matthews - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Clark.Matthews@paranet.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael.Corbin@f4.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Subject: Linguist Appointed Date: 21 Mar 91 02:06:00 GMT This is to announce that John Chalmers has volunteered to be of service to ParaNet as a linguist. We are very pleased to have John aboard. John is a subscriber on the Internet and brings the ability to translate French and Italian. Anyone with articles in these languages for transcription are encouraged to netmail them to me. Thank you. Michael Corbin -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@f4.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael.Corbin@f4.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Subject: New ParaNet Affiliate Date: 21 Mar 91 06:15:00 GMT This is to welcome Jerry Driscoll and Liz Anderson to the ParaNet family. They have been assigned the designation of: ParaNet ALPHA-ETA(sm) Calgary, Alberta, Canada 403-273-5697 2400 Baud Please take a moment to introduce yourselves to the group. Again, WELCOME! Michael Corbin Director -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@f4.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kurt.Lochner@f22.n14766.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Kurt Lochner) Subject: Gravitational magnetism Date: 20 Mar 91 07:16:43 GMT In a previous tirade against the laws of physics (grin) > > From:chalmers@violet.berkeley.edu (John H.Chalmers Jr.) Oh, btw, thanks for posting this, interesting read this.. > > Robert Forward, a physicist specializing > in gravitational theory and 'hard SF' writer (Dragon's > Egg and sequel), has described an antigravity device > consisting of a toroidal coil with an ID of about > 100 meters. > Kinda big, I'm sure prototyping it will be sensational. How many miles of what gauge wire? I'm sure it was mentioned in the article.... > > If the mass of a neutron star were to flow through the > windings of the coil every millisecond, the magnetic Not possible. The constraints of even a superconductor to handle that many electrons per millisec dictate a conductor wider than the toroid itself. That's my hip-pocket assessment without knowing the mass of the neutron star involved. > analog of the gravitational field ('protational' or > gravitational magnetic field) would neutralize > gravity in the center of the coil. The reason for the It would also wreak destruction of unimaginable proportions > enormous masses and velocities required is the low > value of the gravitational coupling constant > (about 40 orders of magnitude less than the strong > nuclear or EM) Wrong! 40 orders of magnitude places this "reaction" above Planck energy values, an unexplored region if not virgin territory by human instrumentation(s) that one might consider possible billionths of a second after the creation of the (now reckoned) universe. 10^19 to 10^28 is more likely the region that we could measure "gravitons" at, if superstring theory is valid. > and the low permeability of space to the field. > Physicists at Stanford and elsewhere are > planning experiments on a satellite in the next decade > to test for the existence of the protational field. I'll have to look this term up, never heard it before. > Given what is known about electrodynamics and the > above, I'm rather skeptical about low power toroidal > magnetic fields' causing warps in space-time. Indeed, I'm real concerned that stuff like this is getting published, which you didn't mention where/what. But that's ok man...thanks for typing it out to us for review. It was a nice attempt at "science fiction" but it doesn't stand up to observable phenomena, plausible deniability and my meager peer review as a physics major. > However, a working model would go a long way toward > convincing me. > ---- John Me too, John....me too... Best wishes to you and yours, and thanks for bringing this to our attentions in ParaNet......go well! -- Kurt Lochner - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Kurt.Lochner@f22.n14766.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kurt.Lochner@f22.n14766.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Kurt Lochner) Subject: Gravitational Magnetism Date: 20 Mar 91 07:26:36 GMT In a reply to John at violet.berkeley.edu!chalmers@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM > > > It might be interesting to consider gravity as the > resultant of mass and time. > Nope, not a chance, not even a small probability. -- Kurt Lochner - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Kurt.Lochner@f22.n14766.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve.Rose@p1.f134.n109.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Steve Rose) Subject: Hatonn And The Pleiades Date: 21 Mar 91 05:24:18 GMT In a message to Steve Rose <18 Mar 91 14:43> Michael Corbin wrote: >> Most probably. But I bet if ParaNet members were to form a 'seek out >> and observe' travel group for various claimants of this phenomenon, as I >> assume they have done for UFO sightings...I believe there would be a lot >> less Phoenix Journal 'Hatonn' facade types floating about. MC> More input. Suggestions? Perhaps a travel / observation group...similar to whatever group may go out to interview witnesses to UFO sightings. Difference here is the ability to 'plan' travel in advance, hence being a direct observer-participant, as opposed to just collecting data after the event(s) take place. Promote the team as strictly an observing body, and not one to declare or pass judgement on the proceedings. Many camps and 'spiritualist churches' do welcome such a group... as long as the publicity is not adverse to their normal operations. What I am *not* advocating is a clandestine operation, in which falsehood identities or purpose is created to 'infiltrate' any established organization. This should be strictly open and above-board from beginning to end. I am sure any such undertaking will be conducted in this proper manner, and only wish to state this for the record. There are organizations that have done this in the past and have documented their findings. I find, though, that they are more inclined to 'make a name for themselves' with the expense of sensationalizing their exploits. THIS SHOULD BE AVOIDED! Participation should also be conducted without the pretense of any use of 'scientific apparatus' above and beyond the accepted use of any possible video or audio tapings as well as personal recorded observations. What turns off a sitting more than the 'absent-minded professors' with lab-coats...fumbling with their *PK-Energy meters* and *PSI-Astral scopes*. Please...most of that hardware crap is as much of a scam scientifically, than the biggest fakker in the spirit business could ever hope to be. I *do* recommend however, the use of 'low-light enhancing' lens attachments for the recording camera(s) of a materialization sitting. Such gear is more commonly referred to as "Nite-Scopes". UFO investigators should know full-well their value. :-) Again...I am just a laymen and do not proport holding any valid credentials in the 'spirit' observation field. My own feelings and personal findings prejudice me against being even an amateur observer any longer. I enjoyed the experiences I had, but do not wish to go into what soured me from continuing on. I only hope that fresh new minds will speak out in a willing capacity to 'take up the ball' so to speak. I certainly hope that an organization such as ParaNet will help add to our knowledge and findings for everyone to share. -- Steve Rose - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Steve.Rose@p1.f134.n109.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John.Tender@f112.n129.z1.FIDONET.ORG (John Tender) Subject: Re: Statements of accepta Date: 19 Mar 91 05:53:04 GMT JT>> Oh. I thought that since _you_ made the claim that Klass, JT>> Sheaffer and Oberg _actually had made_ definitive statements, JT>> that you also had some _evidence or ready information_ on JT>> which to base that claim. Sorry, _my mistake_. (I will, JT>> however, bear this in mind in evaluating your other claims.) RM> Your mistaken assumption is that I posted the reference (to Jim RM> Speiser, not to you) with the aim of convincing you. People who RM> have a long history of going around posing insinuative RM> rhetorical questions, replete with highly selective and RM> distortive exceprts from my postings elsewhere just aren't high RM> up on my to-be-persuaded list. Jim, on the other hand, very RM> likely has already seen the aforementioned statements -- he's a RM> broad and active reader -- and my intent was just to remind him. As I wade through this tangled web of lame rationalization, I must yet remember that when I asked for the references to the material with which you (and you say Jim also) are all too familiar, you were unable to supply them. (Jim, if you're there, can you help out here?) If you really had no intention of convincing me, or thought that I was unworthy of convincing, you wouldn't have responded to my inquiry. It seems my "long history of going around posing insinuative rhetorical questions, replete with highly selective and distortive exceprts" began with my last reply, in which I resorted the the despicable and widely discredited practice of pointing up the truth about your inability to document a claim. I find nothing "distortive" in my "selection" of the issue that Oberg, Klass, and Sheaffer have made clear and definitive statements about their criteria for valid evidence of "UFOs". It's an important topic and is not common knowledge. Your unreasonable irritation stems from other causes. JT>> I will indeed try to contact the three above individuals. RM> RM> I doubt you'll find that there's much percentage in it. Not RM> many facile opportunities for cheap shots are likely to result, RM> and you might have to expend a little effort along the way. I see; asking for information to support a claim is a cheap shot. I supposes I'se jus to iggnerant to know that. Oh well, perhaps a few years of training in "skeptical thinking" would set me aright. Further, I ask you for documentary references of a claim ~you~ make, your answer is "Good question; I don't got none; ask them!", and then you express a fear that I might not want to "expend a little effort along the way." Good reasoning there, Rick. Firmly grounded. Skeptic _par excellence_. ... from the purlieus of Pittsburgh -- John Tender - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: John.Tender@f112.n129.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John.Tender@f112.n129.z1.FIDONET.ORG (John Tender) Subject: File Disclaimers Date: 19 Mar 91 05:29:55 GMT (Continued from Previous message) RM>> I fully disagree. Sysops have no obligation to justify or RM>> explain their placement of download files on their own systems. RM>> If I were moved to post such an explanation, it would be as RM>> follows: "Because I damned well felt like it." That should RM>> more than cover it. JT>> I suppose that this depends on what the sysop decides to JT>> be his "obligation". If one's desire is to present a rational, JT>> objective, and comprehensive overview of a subject, then it is JT>> imperative that rational, objective, and comprehensive JT>> criteria for data presented be made available. If, on the JT>> other hand, one chooses to ignore this obligation and run the JT>> risk (or at least arouse the suspicion) of presenting JT>> half-truths, faulty lines of reasoning, and JT>> conclusions-by-decree, then "because I damned well felt like JT>> it" will indeed suffice. RM> If you want to go around and sermonise to some flock of sysops RM> concerning their download areas, be my guest, but please forgive RM> my absenting myself from your denomination. I get tired of RM> cranls trying to tell sysops what to do with their own property, RM> and have low tolerance. So that's what it is, a flock of sysops? I've heard worse appellations for the group. I will accept you declination of my interpretation of the "obligation" of sysops. But I won't stop expressing my opinions on the subject, just as I hope scientists won't stop trying to convince people that there should be standards of evidence, freedom of information, and the right to question all and everything, even though many may also absent themselves from such "sermons". RM> In point of fact, in any event, I was trying to suggest (to the RM> other fellow) some less drastic alternatives to his proposal to RM> delete the Cooper files. By contrast, on my own board, I don't RM> post disclaimers, nor do I delete text files, nor have I ever RM> considered doing so. I maintain this wide-open policy on RM> my BBS for what I regard as an eminently good reason: Yep, RM> because I damned well feel like it. That's not a ~reason~ at all, even though I don't necessarily object to the policy. I still don't see what that has got to do with the Cooper files being representative "of their kind", nor can I see why you made my omission of this irrelevant material the focus of your reply. It's just an exercise in obscurantism. ... from the purlieus of Pittsburgh -- John Tender - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: John.Tender@f112.n129.z1.FIDONET.ORG -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John.Tender@f112.n129.z1.FIDONET.ORG (John Tender) Subject: Re: File disclaimers Date: 19 Mar 91 05:38:26 GMT JT>> Maybe I wasn't sufficiently clear. I asked what _you_ JT>> meant by "of their kind", information which, at least JT>> according to my way of thinking, cannot be found in the JT>> original source material. RM> I referred to the "kind" to which the original poster, to whom I RM> was responding in ASK_UFO, had for his own reasons consigned RM> them. Had you included a modicum of the context of the RM> discussion, that would have been clear. The point of my First, I moved the message from ASK_UFO since that area recently restricted its message focus (UFO magazine only), and I wasn't sure this topic was still sufficiently in-line. Second, I quoted only part of the message since I disagreed only with that part, and I was hoping that you could clarify the point. Here then is the original post: *********************************************************************** FROM: Rick Moen Area # 76 ( Para-UFO ) TO: Ralph Putman MSG # 35, Jan-10-91 8:47am SUBJECT: Re: An earlier message... Ralph Putnam to Mike Corbin: RP> Anyway, the question is, why do the ParaNet nodes (at least the RP> ones I have dialed into) continue to carry the Bill Cooper RP> files? Is there some valid info. in there? From your (and RP> Don's and Vicky's) messsages, Mr. Cooper is a fraud RP> and a plagiarist. Why not dump his files, and extract your RP> messages into files, and be done with it? Dear Ralph -- I find myself in the quite delicious position of speaking up for Coop. That is, I favour carrying his files, space permitting. Why? Well, just stocking these rambling bits of text (or any other pieces) does not equate to endorsement of their accuracy or of the author's reputation. I don't think I've seen the particular files you mention (waiting for a disk or two from Mike), but even if they're _really bad_, they can -- at a minimum -- be valuable as an example of their kind. If I were really worried about the impression these things might make on callers, I might have two UFO file areas: General and Sysop's Picks. General would be "caveat lector" stuff (Wild Bill and others), in the sysop's humble opinion, while Sysop's Picks would be those the sysop considers less improbable (modify this according to your degree of skepticism :-) ). If I were yet more concerned, I might put a sysop's disclaimer at the top of each file. In more than two years of running my BBS, I have intentionally deleted only three text files. Both were solicitation letters for criminal pyramid schemes. I do not take kindly to this sort of upload. One of these was a repeat offender, after a warning, and I may be persuing prosecution. On the whole, I really don't see the harm in stocking Bill Cooper's files. Who knows -- they may become rare curios some day. <grin> Best Regards, Rick Moen Member, CSICOP Electronic Communications Subcommittee Secretary, Bay Area Skeptics Hosts of the May 1991 Berkeley CSICOP Conference ... from the purlieus of Pittsburgh -- John Tender - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: John.Tender@f112.n129.z1.FIDONET.ORG ********To have your comments in the next issue, send electronic mail to******** 'infopara' at the following address: UUCP {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara DOMAIN infopara%scicom@ncar.ucar.edu ADMIN Address infopara-request%scicom@ncar.ucar.edu {ncar,isis,boulder}!scicom!infopara-request ******************The**End**of**Info-ParaNet**Newsletter************************